Beyond the Narrative: Why Experience is Our Only Truth

English. Spanish. Italian.

Julián Carrón - A dialogue among friends during a Christmas dinner held on December 20, 2025

Ugo: We have received this gift again this year, and we intend to take it all in. Whenever Julián comes to visit, we feel grateful, lucky, and truly happy. I want to start with something I heard recently—not because I had to, but because I needed to breathe. I listened to your talk on Christmas. It was stunning! It strikes me, Julián, that you never stand still; you are always at work.

Julián Carrón: I’m not foolish enough to stop. If someone wants to stop, there’s always plenty of room to take a nap.

Ugo: I have a million things to ask, but let’s start with one. In that talk, you ask: "What is the antibody we must activate so as not to be overwhelmed and condemned to confusion?" I think this concerns everyone. You say: "It is the engagement with Reality; this is the way to avoid being 'dazed' by narratives, delegating our judgment to others." Then you add: "It is a matter of method." And further on: "Giussani puts into our hands the most important tool we have to avoid being subjects to any narrative, regardless of our context: 'Reality becomes evident [not in narratives, small talk, or abstract reflection, but] in experience.' Therefore, 'the starting point is experience.' [...] Nothing challenges power—the power of narratives, of our whims, of our reductions—more than the awareness of the value of experience in unmasking their lies. [...] For experience never deceives."

My question is: Is this "only" thing really enough?

Julián: Yes! Everyone should read what Ugo has summarized and grapple with every step, comparing every line with examples of how things actually happen in experience. Otherwise, we will keep making abstract speeches, detaching ourselves from the only concrete thing: experience. Earlier, one of you told me that when he has a premonition of something beautiful, he struggles to follow through with it. I asked him: "If you were a sports fan and could stay home to watch the game on TV—enjoying it from your armchair, staying warm, and saving money—what would you prefer? Staying home or going to the stadium?" He didn’t hesitate for a second. Right?

Interjection: It always depends on the team, Julián!

Julián: Well, truly... You must always challenge the other person so they can surprise themselves within experience. I could never have convinced him with abstract reflections. Instead, a simple example was enough for him to discover himself in action, despite the "effort" he mentioned. For a fan, staying home is "costlier" than going to the stadium, even if going involves more physical effort—the cold, the expense, the travel... there is no contest!

This is why each of us must compare ourselves with every word, starting from experience. Let’s not keep doing what we’ve done for fifteen years: repeating phrases without making them an experience, guys! We should have learned something by now, shouldn’t we? Things are understood within experience: a definition is a conquest that has already happened. We can understand a definition because we have conquered it in experience; otherwise, we just keep raising objections. We cannot afford the luxury of wasting any more time because life is pressing! Time is growing short.

Interjection: I’d like to ask a question about this. I was struck by a friend who spoke to you this summer about the hatred he felt toward his sister. You told him: "It’s simple; it’s not a matter of ability, but of letting a Presence enter." Let me give you an example. I have a dear friend going through a hard time at work. The problem isn’t the work itself, but an injustice she suffered. As you say, others don't create our problems; they simply bring our own problems to the surface.

She was in a real crisis. One day we were walking to get coffee and I told her: "This is an opportunity to understand what holds up in experience." We stood there for twenty minutes, but I couldn't move her an inch. Then, another friend in a similar spot called me and said: "I know everyone says I should look at the stars in this situation, but I just can't."

Anyway, two days later, I saw the first friend again. She told me: "This happened: I was away on a business trip and I couldn't leave my hotel room. I just kept crying because I didn't have the strength to face the situation." She isn't in the Movement; she only met it a year or two ago. She said: "Then the only person who could help me came to mind. I called the Memores Domini teacher who introduced my husband to the Movement thirty years ago. She asked me: 'Why do you doubt that God has stopped loving you at this moment?' When she said that, it was like I came back to life. I told myself, 'Okay, I’m going.'" She left the room and faced what she had to face.

It struck me because, as you say, first there is the evidence of an experience—it’s not just a story we tell ourselves. I couldn’t move her with words, but then, in her own experience, she discovered what holds up. You always say: "We must yield to the Mystery where it happens." She yielded to it through those words... My question is: What are the factors that allow us to recognize how the Mystery happens? Is it simplicity, an openness of reason, our humanity?

Carrón: You see it when it happens, but you cannot "possess" the instant it occurs. It is not in your hands. As I said in the talk Ugo cited: first you are surprised, and then you realize you’ve been surprised. But you have no mastery over that first "shock," that initial surprise. It happens suddenly, without asking permission. It happens despite yourself, regardless of where you are or what you are thinking. It wakes you from your numbness, and you have no control over that. An instant later, when you realize it, you can say "yes" or "no" to it, but in that first moment, we have no power.

So, the real point is that you discover it when it happens to you. How do you know something happened to your friend? The clearest sign is that she left the room. It’s a fact; it imposes itself as evidence. Before, you had given her words and failed to convince her; she stayed stuck in her opinion, in her "impossibility." An Event has this power to happen, and I know it has happened because it moves me. It’s not that I suddenly find myself with a higher IQ or a willpower I never dreamed of. No—something happens that makes my move easier. It can’t happen without me noticing, otherwise I wouldn’t move! Later, your friend might explain what happened better or worse, but that is the subsequent work of realization: "What happened to me? I was blocked, convinced I lacked the strength... and then, suddenly, what dissolved everything and surprised me so much that I did what I thought was impossible?"

If we don’t look at how it happens, facts mean nothing to us! We don’t learn from facts, yet facts are the only thing that introduces something new. Often, as Giussani says, we "subsume" facts—we swallow them up just to keep thinking as we did before, without submitting our reason to experience. This is why there is nothing more interesting—when something like what happened to your friend occurs—than to watch, watch, watch, watch, watch what happened. If you don't look at it, tomorrow you will make the same mistake with yourself, your child, your wife, or your colleagues. We learn nothing from what happens! But if one treasures every event... It’s easier when you see it happen. You don’t have to struggle to understand the definition: the definition is right there in front of you, in the event. And that is how you grow.

How can you tell if that friend grew, beyond just seeing it happen? What is the test? It’s the next morning, when she faces the next challenge where she feels blocked. She can keep repeating: "I can't, I won't..." But you saw it yesterday! What happened yesterday when you were saying the same things and yet you succeeded? You haven't learned yet. This is what we do: instead of looking at lived experience to learn, we roll forward like a tank, without giving ourselves the space to reflect—as Giussani always told us—on experience. We waste the gift of knowledge that experience offers, which is the only easy thing, because it is how He works.

Interjection: What does "giving space" mean? I want you to go deeper into this, because it is a "work." My friends and I have been discussing this: do I need a certain "human disposition" to truly have an experience? Otherwise, I stay stuck at the initial impact. What does it mean to "give space"?

Carrón: "Giving space" means that—having experienced a possibility of success in what seemed impossible—you start from the hypothesis you perceived to be working. If you don't leave room for what you learned in the previous experience, you always have to start from scratch. That means you haven’t learned a thing. It’s not out of malice, but because you didn't realize it—what happened didn't become yours! And because it didn’t become yours, you make the same mistake the next time, and the time after that... and this wastes an enormous amount of time! In the end, it makes us skeptical. We start to doubt: "Is this 'work' actually good for anything or is it a waste of time?" No, the problem is that the work wasn't done!

You know you’ve understood something when, the next time, you are able to enter Reality—despite the effort—on the strength of what you learned from experience. Not from a speech, or something you read... but from the experience you had! Otherwise, you aren't treasuring what happened. This is why Jesus said to the disciples: "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see! For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see and did not see it" (Lk 10:23-24). Why? Jesus knew that seeing wasn't enough. The Pharisees saw the miracles, but it was useless: they didn't value what they saw; they didn't treasure it. This can happen to Pharisees and disciples alike. Jesus says to them: "Do you realize how lucky you are?"

I’ll give you a challenge: who among you woke up this morning grateful—full of gratitude? The test to see if we have treasured everything we’ve seen is what happens in the morning. Is the first thing that prevails a sense of heaviness—the clutter of everything running through our heads—with nothing to challenge it? If we don't give space to what has happened to us, our whole day will be determined by that clutter. But we have seen enough facts to last a lifetime! If anyone thinks otherwise, they should ask themselves if it’s true that their life hasn't been "buried" by the avalanche of facts their eyes have seen—facts they cannot erase from the face of the earth, or from their own lives.

It’s a simple question: What prevails in our sense of life? What perception do we have of ourselves? Don't tell me stories; just answer that. All other stories are nothing to someone who has seen certain things. We can arrive at Christmas as if we’ve seen nothing, like just another ritual, or we can arrive with the full expectation of celebrating what has happened to us. Because "Christianity, being a present Reality, has the evidence of an experience as its tool of knowledge." Facts are the evidence of an experience. And when they happen—and we realize it—everything is different. Not because we are better, or don't make mistakes, or aren't fragile... What’s the mystery in fragility being fragile? Where’s the problem? In fact, we become even more aware of our fragility. How is it possible that, being as we are, without hiding anything that weighs us down, gratitude still prevails?

Interjection: I want to say three things.

Carrón: One. Of the three, one. The most important.

Interjection: First, I discovered I have a nostalgia for Jesus. Second, that I don't see Him, and because I don't see Him... I feel like I could enjoy things more, but I don't. I need help with this. Otherwise, I realize I’m not really living. During this dinner, though, I met two people who are truly "living"—they are living from within their illness and they are moved. I want to live at that level. I hope that’s clear.

Carrón: It’s very clear. I already answered this. As I said, if we don’t "realize," we return to the same mistakes over and over. We all forget, we all fail... The question is whether, at a certain point, the facts prevail over everything—even over the "feeling" one has of oneself.

Interjection: I wanted to say that until a few years ago, I read everything and went to every meeting, but I realized I only truly started living what I was reading when I got sick and met the "Quadratini" friends. I discovered I was "incapable"—first of all, because this is so much bigger than me—but also "capable." Now I’m in follow-up and my illness is stable, but at home, we are in a terrible financial situation. We are changing our lives. I started working—caring for a child and cleaning houses—something I never thought I’d do. I discovered I am happy and grateful. Even though I need the money, how much I earn isn't even the point. My husband starts a new job on January 7, "at the bottom." We know it will be hard, but we aren't worried, because I’ve seen what happened these last two years. When the situation seemed impossible, something always happened. For example, we never lack food. My daughters, who always had everything they wanted, now give thanks for the food on the table. My youngest can go on a school trip because of the help of some people; she is grateful for an opportunity that isn't a given. In the "Quadratini," I have to say goodbye to a dear friend every week; I’ll never get used to it. I’ll never get used to the tears, or to saying goodbye to Alfredo... he couldn't speak, but he was a Presence and he still is. But because of everything I see daily, I’m not worried.

Carrón: How do you see that you have "treasured" what happened to you? You see it in the fact that, to face this new situation, you find yourself with an energy, an awareness, and a joy (letizia) that you didn't have before. You can tell if what happened to you made you grow when you face the next challenge—whether it’s illness, money, or work. It’s not that you don't notice the situation because you live in some "ivory tower" (iperuranio); you are perfectly aware, but the situation doesn't determine your life. It’s not about avoiding reality, but about facing it with this "newness" you feel bubbling up inside you. We see that by making a journey, something remains in her that allows her to face the new challenge with a new self-awareness. Because "the strength of a subject lies in the intensity of his self-awareness."

I recently spoke with two friends who had already faced a major challenge and now have work problems again. I asked them: "What is the difference between then and now?" It was obvious: it was the growth in their self-awareness. Here is the problem: if what happens in life is useless, it leaves no trace; it doesn't increase the person. This doesn't mean you won't have more challenges, or illness, or work problems. No, no, no—that’s not it. The "newness" is that I have made a journey so that I am better equipped to face any challenge! Once I’ve seen it, I’m not afraid of life’s new provocations. If the old challenges led to my growth, I am open to what the Mystery is preparing to make me grow even more. I don't want to be spared the new situation, otherwise I couldn't see Him in action again!

So, we grow and we realize that something of this growth stays with us when we surprise ourselves with "something more" than the time before. Otherwise, it’s like going to class and learning nothing. If life is just a "to and fro" where nothing remains, you eventually become cynical. Why should I commit to this journey if it leaves no trace? Instead, life becomes a fascinating adventure, a continuous discovery. Where before I was blocked by my inability, now I face reality without being determined by fear. This doesn't mean it’s mechanical—I don't want it to be; I want my person to grow. I want the intensity of my relationships and my work to grow.

Interjection: I’ll start with a simple fact to ask a question. A friend told me: "After 23 years, I want to leave the Movement because I’m sad." I told him: "Well, that’s great..." He asked, "What do you mean?" I said, "If you’re sad, what are you doing here? If after 23 years you’re still sad, you’re a fool. I’m here to be happy. If you find a path that makes you happier, let me know." This leads to my question: When you face something that doesn't "correspond" to you, how do you handle it?

Carrón: When I encounter something that doesn't correspond to me, what do you think I do? I challenge you!

Interjection: You probably do the same thing as when you find something that does correspond.

Carrón: When I find something that doesn't correspond, I’m thrilled. Why? Because it means I’m not a fool, I don't have to lie to myself, and the criterion of judgment within me isn't confused. This shoe doesn't fit; this situation isn't right—period. As a farmer’s son, I prefer to "call a spade a spade" (pane al pane e vino al vino) without making up stories. I am thrilled that the criterion of judgment the Mystery put inside me works perfectly. For someone who wants to make a journey—as I have always desired—nothing is more important than the fact that the criterion works and I don't have to lie to myself. But, my friend, it doesn't end there. I’m not satisfied with just that: even what doesn't correspond points me back to what does! If you are in love and find yourself in a place that doesn't fit, what happens? You remember the person you love even more. You don't just sit there crying; you say: "I need to see her again!" The more things work or don't work, the more they correspond or don't... the more they aren't enough for you... the more they awaken the desire for her or for him!

As Guardini says: "In the experience of a great love, everything that happens becomes an event within its sphere." Think of a company Christmas party. The big corporations have the music, the lights, the candles... everything is great. But imagine your wife isn't invited. The better the party is, the more you think: "This is great, but without her, what is all this?" The party doesn't have to be bad for you to remember her! The more beautiful it is, the more you miss her, because without her, everything lacks color.

So, the point is to observe this in experience. Otherwise, it’s just a story you tell yourself to settle: "Well, nothing happened, so I’ll make up a story to convince myself." You’ll never be convinced by a story. You have to discover it in experience. And I’ll add: thank God! Because we are well-made, we aren't convinced by just anything; we are only convinced when it reveals itself in our experience. Then we understand. The worst thing that can happen is that I don't have an experience! You verify the value of what corresponds to you precisely because you don't confuse it with anything less. Not even the best party...

I can't help but think of this passage from Fr. Giussani: one evening, a group of friends was celebrating someone leaving for abroad. They were all taken by the beauty of the singing, the friendship... Suddenly, Giussani said: "All of this is beautiful, but if at a certain point there doesn't emerge from your depths an 'exasperated tension' to say His name, you won't be happy, there or here." I wonder: among all those people, who was surprised by this "exasperated tension to say His name"? Most of them probably lacked nothing. What had Giussani encountered to live like that, on such a beautiful evening, without taking anything away from that beauty? "If this exasperated tension to say His name doesn't explode, then even this beauty is too little." This is experience. Who can discover it? The one who has lived it. And the one who hasn't lived it has the chance to, because they see it happening in another and can see if it happens to them, too.

Without this, we miss the best part. Even the greatest party, without this tension to say His name, is too little for the heart’s need. What experience of his own need did Giussani have, and what had he discovered as its "correspondence," to be able to say such a thing? I challenge anyone to think of how many times they’ve caught themselves saying something similar: "Yes, but without that Presence, it’s too little." We are foolish, but we aren't confused: not everything is equal. Even the most beautiful thing, without that Presence, is too little.

Interjection: To conclude, that friend asked me: "Why do you stay here?" and I said: "Because I am incredibly happy with Christianity; otherwise I’d be stupid..." And he said: "Is that all?" "Yes, that’s all."

Interjection: The experience I’ve had lately—which you mentioned in the Christmas talk—is that everything is at stake in the present. But I want to ask: in this sense, what is "education"? Because for me and those around me, the risk is the future... as if we need "preconditions" to have an Encounter. My experience is that He reached me right where I was, without any preconditions. The faces of my friends, like the School of Community, are a place that teaches me to recognize where He is already reaching me now—not a precondition so He can reach me tomorrow. So, what is education?

Carrón: Education is this introduction to Reality, so that we find ourselves more capable of entering any circumstance because of the journey we’ve made. If you want to know what education is, just read Chapter Ten of The Religious Sense. Giussani describes the situation one finds oneself in from the moment one opens one's eyes to Reality, and then he maps out the whole path. Do you know how that chapter ends? You see if you’ve made the journey he proposes if you can "enter any situation of existence with a deep tranquility, with a possibility of joy (letizia)." That is education. You see if you’ve made a journey in life—whatever the situation you have to enter (and often we don't choose them)—if you can enter it like a child with his mother. A child, facing a dark room, runs away crying; but his mother takes his hand and, with her, he can enter "with deep tranquility" and "a possibility of joy," challenging any darkness. The question is whether we have discovered the Presence that allows us to enter any darkness with this "deep tranquility." Otherwise, it means our education doesn't yet allow us to face any situation.

What is the test? When we see a person like our friend Alfredo die with this "deep tranquility" and "possibility of joy," and we see how his wife Laura lives through his loss. It’s in that moment—not when we’re just talking or thinking—that the reality of who we are becomes transparent. When we see people entering certain situations and living them differently, we say: "I want to enter them like that, too!" The verification of education doesn't happen in our thoughts, but in Reality!

Interjection: When I manage to "give space" to what you’re saying, even in the middle of struggles, I am struck by a peace that isn't mine. I have a question. I seem to discover what you’re saying in "inevitable circumstances," where it's almost easier because the path is already laid out. But what about when I have to make difficult choices? For example, at work: everything in me says I’m miserable, but I have a family and I can’t just quit and walk away blindly. What is the criterion for "non-inevitable" circumstances, where how you live them depends on you? Do you wait for something to happen, or do you move?

Carrón: In life, most things aren't "inevitable circumstances." There are things we don't choose, but in the normalcy of living, we decide almost everything. So let’s leave the inevitable aside—when those come, you manage because you have to. The problem is when I can decide, and therefore I can also spare myself the challenges. Why do it? But the point is: even when I spare myself, is life "more" life? One has to decide. That is where freedom is at stake and where it emerges whether we have learned anything. As Giussani said, the test of life is played out in "free time."

Or, to put it another way, where I can exercise my freedom. Parents usually judge children by their grades, but where does the kid truly emerge? In his free time, when he can do whatever he wants. It’s the same for us. Some things are "inevitable"—if you don't work, you don't eat. If you don't go to the doctor, you don't get better. Those are easy. The problem is that most of our time is "free." We can do one thing or another.

That is what makes life exciting! If you haven't discovered what makes the choice you make "exciting," then even the things you do freely are draining. So the real question is: in those circumstances where I can choose A, B, or C—why do I choose? If by choosing A, I see my life becoming more fulfilled, more intense, and more joyful than if I just let it go. We sometimes think fulfillment is found in comfort. On the contrary: the less we commit, the less we are able to discover how exhilarating living can be. And everyone must verify this for themselves.

I’m not interested in discussing where we start from; everyone starts from where they are right now. Let’s not waste time. You think this rather than that? Go ahead. Verify it. We waste an enormous amount of time discussing nothing! It’s stunning. One minute of verification introduces us more to the truth than centuries of discussion. We must decide whether to increase the "small talk," increasing the nothingness, or to do one minute of verification. I see many people who think they are engaged with Reality because they keep talking and looking for "dialogue." No! The point is to verify whatever "working hypothesis" you have in your head. It’s not true because it’s in your head; it’s true if it’s true! And it proves itself true by being lived! Otherwise, we keep wasting time because the "chip" hasn't changed. And we increase the nothingness: empty, empty, empty words. In the end, they bore everyone because they don't give us a single instant of more fullness.

Do you realize that—in this world—the only thing that will make a difference is having people in front of us who are a "Presence"? To run into someone who is living, and who doesn't waste time in "water-cooler" gossip? Someone who lives! Because it is there, in living, that the person shines! And whoever sees it gives thanks because they discover that life can reach that level of human intensity, of fullness, of awareness. There are people everywhere telling you all sorts of things, and with the media today, there’s no end to it... but that doesn't change the substance of seeing a person who has an experience of fullness. And you see it in the way they live. That’s it! Merry Christmas