The Pleasure of Growing
Julián Carrón - A dialogue on friendship and the opportunity for personal growth.
Father Roberto: Well, let's begin. I'll say a few words to introduce our guests.
I wanted to invite Don Julián Carrón to be with us, and I know he's here purely out of friendship. And what does friendship mean, when you can truly talk about everything? It means there's a space where you can be entirely yourself, down to the very core. You aren't afraid to reveal your whole self because you feel the other person welcomes you and opens up their world to you.
That is why I invited him. Above all, it's because even though we haven't been in constant contact, through the friendship that binds us and in our daily encounters, I have often felt that his way of saying things expresses my own thoughts. The things you hear him say are the same things I would have wanted to say myself.
Then, I invited Fra Lorenzo and Tommaso Cantamessa so that this wouldn't be a conference, but rather a dialogue between people who question each other, tell their stories, and, in a way, challenge each other to get to the bottom of life's issues. I invited Fra Lorenzo because he is a born restless soul. I invited Tommaso because you never have to suggest questions to him; he is always original and doesn't play a part. He doesn't try to live someone else's life; he wants to live his own, entirely and with passion.
So, I invited these three guests. I will ask the first question to get things started, and then they can continue the dialogue. The question I leave to Don Julián is the title of our meeting: "The Pleasure of Growing." How has this happened in your life? I ask you to tell us something about yourself so that we can get to know you better and to talk to us about what has continually reawakened hope in your life. Thank you.
Losing Our Life by Living
Julián Carrón It is a pleasure to respond to this gesture of friendship from Father Roberto, which brings us all together this evening to talk about the things that really matter in life.
Nothing seems more interesting to me than personal growth. I have always been struck by a phrase from T.S. Eliot that sums up what life is and why it has been given to us: “Where is the life we have lost in living?” The saddest thing that can happen is, as Eliot said, that we lose our lives while living—not because one wants to lose or waste it, but because of the way one lives it.
I will begin by recounting an episode that has struck me deeply in recent years since I retired and returned to teaching at a vocational school. One day I asked a student, Giorgia, “What's the best thing that happened to you today?”
“Yesterday, when I was working in a restaurant, I got a tip.”
“That's great! Why did they give you a tip?”
“Because I worked hard and did my best to be attentive to my customers' needs.”
To continue provoking her, I asked, “But while you were so busy, were you looking at the clock to see when you would finish?”
“No, I didn't even remember the clock. I was so busy that I enjoyed it.”
And I said to her, "That's wonderful! Think of all the hours you'll have to work in your life. Imagine if you start enjoying life the way you enjoyed it last night! You've gained twice: the tip and the pleasure of working like that. If a tip comes, it will just be the icing on the cake."
But then she, who had been so enthusiastic, looked at me seriously and said, ”Prof, everything in me just resets.”
I was stunned. Not because she hadn't had this experience—she told me something I wouldn't have known otherwise—but because, at her age, she was already aware that one can “lose one's life by living.” That nothing of what happens may remain. I was enthusiastically telling her, “If you start to realize how much you enjoyed yesterday, you'll be able to enjoy every hour of work.” And she looked at me very seriously, as if confiding a secret, and repeated, “Everything in me just resets.”
I was thrilled with her answer because the fact that she realized that “everything resets” seemed amazing to me for someone her age. I told at least 20 or 25 people about it. And the truth of what she said was confirmed two weeks later when I went back to her. I asked her, “Do you remember what you said to me?” She didn't remember a thing. For her, everything had been reset.
This is what led me to realize the importance of growing up, because otherwise, everything is lost. Not because you haven't experienced it, but because you don't recognize its value.
Another episode I've told many times is a conversation I had years ago in Barcelona with two young men at the end of high school. We were talking about life, and I asked them, "Would you have anything to tell your six-year-old sister about math? Any certainties to pass on to her?” They could have told her something, big or small. ”And about life?” Silence.
“How many hours have you spent on math compared to the hours you've lived? Why do you have something to say about math but nothing to say about life?”
Because in math, they were taught a method to gradually build certainty about what they learned. In life, no one teaches a method that can enrich a person and make them grow. And so, in the end, life is lost. Not because you don't live, but because nothing remains.
That's why, going back to Father Roberto's question, which I hadn't forgotten, what has always fascinated me is the possibility of following a human path, because I didn't want to lose my life by living. Above all, I was fortunate enough to meet a person, Luigi Giussani, who offered me the method for growing in life that I didn’t have. I had taken my humanity seriously, and I had taken seriously the proposal made to me in the seminary, but I hadn’t understood that to be enriched by my experiences, I needed to constantly compare what I was living with the needs I had within me.
The thing that amazed me most about what I learned from him is that he offered me the tool to grow. It didn't mean that I no longer made mistakes; I made them just as before, but I even learned from my mistakes. How many times have we learned the pronunciation of a word, or spelling, or math, by making mistakes? The problem is not making mistakes, but learning from your mistakes. And so, nothing should be discarded.
Everything is useful To grow. And so, from that moment on, I had no other desire than to live with this awareness, to grow in life. Because without this, in the end, as I said before, quoting Eliot, one loses one's life by living.
The Effort and Fear of Growing Up
Tommaso Cantamessa: Thank you for your contribution. I have a very simple question. In my life, I've realized that growing up isn't always like when you're a child and you say, “One day I'll have a car, I want to grow up so I can drive on my own and live on my own.” I have never particularly suffered from the fear of the “new” or “the fear of growing up”, precisely because of the joy of discovery. However, listening to my friends and loved ones, I realize that growing up isn't always a pleasure.
I wanted to read a message I received from someone very dear to me, which I think explains this well:
"I'm fed up. I'm fed up with feeling so much, and I'm fed up with not being able to react. I feel like I'm aware of everything, but I can't bring out what I know is inside me.
I started the day so well, and then I don't know what happened. A slight feeling of tiredness, two negative thoughts too many, and I just canceled myself out and threw away a beautiful sunny day. I cooked, I read, I went for a bike ride and looked at things with love, and then I felt agitated, unable to relax, unable to sleep for twenty minutes for fear of missing out on who knows what. I'm tired of understanding others but still feeling hurt. A friend and I had a falling out, and I can't stop thinking about it. Another friend hasn't been in touch, and my other friend is also in a daze.
I'm tired of accepting people for who they are, even if deep down it still hurts me. And I'm also sorry that it hurts me, because I know I should take it differently and not let it get to me. I'm tired of dwelling on these things when I was the one who ruined the day by not seeing my friends or doing what I had planned. I'm tired of feeling like I'm growing up and feeling lost because I don't know where I'll end up or what I'll do, and if I'll be able to be happy with what I do—to feel fulfilled and not always on guard, with someone trying to walk all over me.
And most of all, I'm tired of feeling so grown up and seeing how my parents are becoming more closed off and old every day. Because that's just how it is. I'm tired of trying to figure out who I have to prove myself to because I know I don't need to, but I see it in the way I seek my parents' approval in every single thing I do. And I'm tired of all the questions I ask myself. Tired of not knowing. Not knowing what I'll be doing in the next few months. And my grandmother... who knows how she'll be. I'm afraid of wasting time, but I know there's no time to waste right now. I'm just afraid. And I think I understand everything, but I'm still afraid.
My stomach tightens, and I'm overcome with the urge to tell myself that everyone is stupid, that I don't want to hear anything, and I just want to leave. But then I'm rational enough to say that they're not all stupid, that I'm partly stupid too, because I'm the one who can't face what I'm feeling. I should start waking up and finding some courage, some peace, or something. And finally, I shed two tears that probably needed to come out all day.
Julián Carrón: This is a message that, I think, describes well the difficulty of growing up. That is a very accurate description of the situation many people find themselves in at a certain point, when a series of events, reactions, and feelings happen, and deep down they don't know what to do with all this, so to speak, ‘ensemble of reactions.’
The first thing that strikes me when I hear a testimony like this is that growing up is a provocation. Life provokes you, challenges you with this series of events that you find yourself facing. And so, I understand that if someone in such a situation does not realize its meaning, they do not know how to interpret it correctly. In the end, you are left with this tangle of things that happen, to the point of feeling “fed up with feeling so much,” without being able to understand what it is all for.
This documents the challenge that a person of her age faces. The first thing we can do is help her understand: Is all this provocation from reality, which she cannot avoid, simply an obstacle to growth, a burden to bear that makes her feel crushed? Or is it precisely because of these provocations that it becomes an opportunity for growth?
In my opinion, this entire challenge is meant to make us grow. Why? Because we understand things—we understand the Mystery—by experiencing them. If you weren't constantly provoked by all these things, how could you understand your capacity to feel, the scope of the questions that arise, your whole drive to truly enjoy life?
Sometimes, however, as you said, you feel a fear that blocks you. And then, instead of becoming an opportunity, it becomes something that blocks personal growth. But because they are urgent questions that one cannot ignore, if you take them seriously, they become opportunities. So, how can we help each other use this situation to embrace this feeling?
I would ask this person: “But do you think that the best way to avoid this is not to feel? If you had a boyfriend one day, would you want to be insensitive? Would you want not to feel all the excitement that his presence brings into your life, leading you to a fullness you could not have imagined before falling in love?”
What if the emergence of these feelings is meant to make you aware of the urgent need within you to respond? Because you were made for this. Father Giussani describes this phenomenon by showing how, in a person's psychological history, the source of affective capacity—of feeling—arises when the person is welcomed. In the case of a child, this presence is the mother.
But at a certain point, this original sign is no longer enough, and then she begins to feel everything you described. Because when a person begins to grow up, they realize that what their mother or father says is not enough. They have to take the bull by the horns and start playing the game like a grown-up. And this, at times, is hard work. I understand. But without this effort, they will not be able to live as an adult, with all their capacity for enthusiasm and for the vibrancy of their humanity, and enjoy everything they were made for.
When we hear these things, we think it would be better not to feel them. But thank goodness the Mystery does not listen to us! Because if you did not feel all the vibrancy of your humanity, would you be happy? I don't think so. All this emerges gradually so that you can see it has been given to you, so that when you find the answer—the person you love—you can perceive the greatness of your humanity in order to welcome them and move towards fulfillment.
What now seems like a mistake... we must treasure all of this, because when the person who can truly attract me arrives, I will be able to experience a fullness that I would not have experienced as a child. So all of this is part of growing up. But I will say even more because, as Don Giussani continues, even this will not be enough at a certain point. The more one discovers this, the more one realizes that it is limitless, boundless, because we are made for something greater.
So youth is the moment when, little by little, through all these struggles, provocations, and challenges, the nature of my self emerges. Without this, we would always remain children. But is it negative that all this turmoil emerges, or is it a sign of the greatness we have?
Two things come to mind about growth from my experience with Leopardi. I read that everything man finds is “too little and too small for the capacity of the soul,” and that this feeling of boredom, of inadequacy, is not a sign of pathology, but a sign of man's greatness. It is the way in which the Mystery, instead of giving you a lesson on growth, makes it happen to you. St. Augustine said it in an amazing way: “You show quite clearly the greatness you wanted to attribute to rational creatures [to men and women awakening to life], because nothing less than You is enough for their blissful peace.”
I would say to this person: Everything that is happening to you is nothing less than your own self-awareness coming to life. It is your awareness of who you are. Because without this, you could not be yourself; you would remain like a dead person. The only thing is to discover this without being frightened, as she intuits at the end when she says that she needs to wake up. Then one begins to understand that this growth does not happen because we are badly made, but because we only realize who we are when this set of provocations happens to us.
We often forget one thing: these things do not happen to dogs. Dogs don't get bored. Why do we? Because that's how we are. Because everything is “small and insignificant for the capacity of the soul,” and therefore we are so big that nothing can satisfy the abyss of our desire for happiness. If this person takes advantage of all this abyss that they see bubbling up inside them to realize that this is their greatness exploding before their eyes, they will begin to love, not suffer, their growth. They will love life more and more, with all its provocations. Because if this did not happen, it would be a flat program. And who cares about a flat life? Life is life precisely because it is made to grow continuously.
From Obstacle to Opportunity
Fra Lorenzo: Thank you, Julián. I can think of many evenings when you made me angry, reading your words and working with friends on the things you told us. I noticed that I, too, was frightened by the things that happened in the convent—by my temperament, my reactions. So many times, my first reaction was fear.
Then I realized that my second response was, “Well, it's the situation's fault.” So, I thought what was preventing me from growing was the situation I was in. I remember the moment when I wasn't just reading you to fill a void, but truly listening. I remember saying to Elia, a mutual friend, “I realized the magnitude of the challenge of those years and I got really angry.” And you said, “Stop dumping your humanity, your emptiness, on others, because circumstances are an essential factor in the destiny of happiness.” I still hold on to that sentence.
Julián Carrón: A decisive moment for me was when I began to see everything this person describes, and that you are now telling me about yourself, not as an obstacle, not as something to endure or be crushed by, but as an opportunity.
That was a turning point. Everything started to become a friend. In what sense a "friend"? In the sense that it provoked me to think, to ask myself, “Do I have to wait for the situation to change, or can I start learning to live with it differently? Do I have to wait for people to change? And if they don't want to change, must I remain crushed by them forever?”
I remember asking a person to collaborate with someone else, and this made him feel intimidated. He said to me, “Don't ask me to collaborate with this person, because...” I said, “Okay, don't worry. But I don't know if it's in your best interest.”
“Why?” "Because he's not the one causing you problems with his temperament. You see, I am in front of him, and he has the same temperament with me as he does with you, yet he doesn't intimidate me."
So it is not things, situations, or people that are to blame for our troubles. The only thing all this highlights is our own inconsistency and the fact that we allow ourselves to be crushed by anything. Sparing yourself this does not help you grow; you simply become weaker. And so I began to see all these things as a provocation to see if what I had encountered—first and foremost the Christian faith—could respond to every provocation.
Every circumstance is a friend, regardless of how it presents itself. Every person is a friend—not because I agree with them in some sentimental way, but because, even if I don't agree, they provoke me to live. They ask me a question, they set me on a path, they push me. And so it was a turning point, because what I initially perceived as an obstacle became a great opportunity for growth.
This allowed me, through constant learning, to accompany other people. Because no one gives what they do not have. We cannot accompany others if we have not first traveled the path that allows us to offer them a suggestion so that they can find the answer they need through their own experience. This doesn't happen just by thinking in our little rooms at home. We grow by living, by responding to the challenges of life.
Parents often think their job is to spare their children the hardships they have endured. This is a mistake. Instead of helping their children see that they have the ability to grow, they justify them and spare them what life itself does not spare. We are almost always tempted to amend God's plan. The Mystery has given us all this precisely to help us grow.
He does not spare you because He wants to show you His victory. He did not spare the disciples the storm on the lake. Who, in hindsight, would have wanted to be spared that fear, after seeing a presence emerge from sleep that calms everything and shows His mastery over life? I would not have wanted to be spared. If we spare ourselves the trial, we cannot see who Christ is, because we take away His opportunity to show Himself.
And when we let Him do so, He emerges with all His power and can say, “What are you afraid of? Do you still not believe? Have you not yet understood who I am?” He came so that we might have life, and have it in abundance, not to flatten us. I want to see Him win in every circumstance. I want Him to not spare me, so that He can show me who He is—and who I am—if I let Him into my life.
Fra Lorenzo: I have a question about the episode with Giorgia. What does it take for her, or for me, to hold on to the things we experience without them being erased? Because I see that my first attempt is to think, “Now I have to be good at noticing.” So I am left with this question: What does it take not to lose sight of the Mystery at work?
Julián Carrón: The only thing you need is to notice and judge what you have experienced. Imagine a student: if what they study does not become their own, what is left at the end of the year? Nothing. The same thing happens in life. Nothing remains that has not been truly made one's own.
Memory does not preserve everything. Think about your experience. What do you remember? What do you return to when facing new challenges? Something you learned in the past, which has remained as a treasure to face the future. The only way we can not lose what we experience is to grow. Giorgia was beginning to realize that there was a crucial issue here. She was beginning to sense that everything could be wiped out. That's why I was excited: because if a person begins to understand this, they can truly begin to enrich themselves.
Tommaso: Regarding what you said about your relationship with Father Giussani, at what point did you realize that effort could lead to opportunity? I don't think it's just wishful thinking.
Julián Carrón: At a certain point, I began to surprise myself, especially when I made mistakes, because I had a tool to understand why things weren't working. I saw that all this was not an obstacle, but something that was given to me to grow.
When you see that every challenge makes you grow, what remains is the growth you find within yourself, and you forget the effort. The positivity you have gained prevails over all objections. But who can understand this? Only those who risk trying it. No one can be convinced just by listening. The only thing that convinces us is seeing it happen in our own experience.
That's why I was very struck by something I read recently by Father Giussani, a passage I had not seen before: “Christianity, being a present reality, has as its instrument of knowledge the evidence of experience.” There is no other instrument of knowledge for life. How did Jesus show who He was? By living.
Responding to the provocation of the Pharisees: "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, yes or no?” Everyone was silent. Jesus performed a miracle and then sent them home with a question: ”Which one of you, if your donkey falls into a well on the Sabbath, does not go and pull it out?"
Seeing someone like Him with this ability to face any provocation, take the bull by the horns, and send them home with a question... He didn't decide for them. This is the path to freedom. Truth cannot be imposed; it is discovered through freedom.
Question: Good evening. My question comes from various life experiences. I have asked myself, since nothing in our lives happens without suffering, whether this suffering is an inevitable anthropological fact, or whether I can somehow make it fruitful.
Julián Carrón: What do you think? You can only find out through experience. Is it possible that suffering can be useful?
Question: I failed high school. And I must say that, in retrospect, this experience brought me closer to faith, and with faith, I understood that I could make that suffering fruitful. But not everyone has had this privilege, which in retrospect I find almost paradoxical.
Julián Carrón: but could you have imagined before—when you were so angry, so upset with your circumstances—that this would be the path to happiness? No. I assure you, many people who are sick, who have failed in life, or who lack drive share the same struggles you had. But who can convince them? No explanation I give you now could convince you of this, just as it would not have convinced you back then when you were consumed with anger.
You thought that failure would be the end of your life. But as Shakespeare wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." The point is, only if you leave room for the unexpected, as you did, can you discover that such a transformation is possible. If you had remained stuck in your own thoughts, that failure could not have become an occasion for a greater good; no one could have convinced you otherwise.
That is why I say we can only learn from what we actually go through. You were open enough to see that life did not stop there, with that failure. Life went on. At a certain point, you discovered there were more things in heaven and earth than your philosophy at that moment could explain. You realized that what seemed impossible had happened: that a failure would lead you to faith. You never would have believed it possible, even if someone had tried to force you.
It happened at the perfect moment.And who's to say this can't happen constantly in life? At least we can be open to the possibility. That is the essence of reason because I cannot have all the possibilities under my control—all the paths through which I can grow.
So, your story is a testimony for all of us. It shows that whatever situation we find ourselves in right now, we can think like you did. We can wonder, "How will life surprise me? How will the Mystery lead me down a path that I cannot even imagine right now, if I'm not limited by my current circumstances?"
Question I wanted to ask... I felt a lot of energy in your speech when you talk about courage and boldness. But is all this energy something I must always seek within myself?
Julián Carrón: “Courage is not something you can give yourself,” says Manzoni.
Question: No. I surprised myself because I got tired of being stuck.
Julián Carrón: No, I was simply surprised that I got tired of being stuck there. Sometimes a voice in my head would say, “This is the situation. This is his temperament. This person won't change.”
In the end, I had to decide whether to settle for enduring the circumstances or to take a risk. I chose to take a risk. I was surprised by what I found. I didn't know that living this way could be so intense or that this approach could generate so much energy for facing life's challenges. The big change was when I realized that all the things I had perceived as obstacles had become opportunities for growth.
And so, I can only testify to the power of this working hypothesis when we face situations where we are stuck. Reality is greater than what our own rigid ideas often tell us is true. For this reason, there is no other access to the truth except through freedom. If you don't take a chance, you will never discover it.
Question: So, ultimately, you're saying that the beginning of everything is still within you.
Julián Carrón: It's inside you. Because you have a need for life, you're not made to stifle your need for happiness, for justice, and for beauty. So, the Mystery has made us well. There's something unyielding in us, which is one of the things that surprises me most.
I think of an example I often use, like the rapper Marracash. He started from nothing, from the poverty he was born into, and achieved incredible success. He could fill his time with anything he wanted, but he realized it wasn't enough. After getting the Rolex he had always dreamed of, he understood that even that couldn't satisfy him. He said something like, "After having this experience, I'm now more interested in understanding who I am and what I truly want."
Someone like him, in his own way, is following this path without rushing. Seeing this dawning self-awareness, which life has given him, is what makes me so enthusiastic about living. It's the hope that this awareness will, little by little, become more and more alive in all of us. And this is what happens when each person decides whether or not to take that risk.
Host: Let's conclude here. Thank you for the valuable insight you have renewed in me: the self is well-made, the work of the One who “made all things well,” as Scripture says.
This encourages us to look deeply at the evidence of what we experience. When we forget this, we no longer understand life. I speak for myself. But fortunately, we have friends who, from time to time, say to us, “Wake up! Something has happened in your life.” And from there, we can start again.
The author has not revised the notes. Transcription, translation and editing by the staff of the digital cultural center www.epochalchange.org.
Source: https://youtu.be/gKei5y1kMn0?si=35sOAtA1CVi4KPep
