To Educate Is to Touch the Core of the Self
An Interview with Father Julián Carrón - Welcome to a new episode of Carmelitànzia. Welcome! Season two. Hi, I'm Fra Lorenzo.
Fra Beppe: And I'm Fra Beppe.
Fra Lorenzo: We have Fr. Julián Carrón here with us. Welcome!
Fr. Julián Carrón: Thank you for having me.
Fra Lorenzo: Let's quickly introduce you for those who might not know you. Julián Carrón is a Spanish priest from the Diocese of Madrid, a longtime professor in the field of education at the Catholic University, and the former leader of the Communion and Liberation Movement. We invited you because of your passion for education, and we are so happy to have you here with us.
Fr. Julián Carrón: I’m also happy to be here to talk about education.
Fra Lorenzo: While preparing this episode, Beppe—who worked in theater before entering the convent and still does—told us about when he ran European projects with young people. He was sent troubled teenagers, many at risk of dropping out, whom no one else wanted. He recounted, with surprise, that after they worked together, these kids revealed an unexpected richness of character. So we asked ourselves: what ignites that spark in a young person that sometimes even the school system can't?
Fr. Julián Carrón: It is the self awakening in a living encounter; this is the first step for everything that follows. So, if this spark isn't ignited, if we don't touch—to use Pavese's words—the “inflamed point” of the other, we have accomplished nothing. Once this point is touched, the person begins to become the protagonist of their own life. You can see it happen: when others try to set limits to put them in order, they fail, because the self cannot be contained by any system.
When a person is struck at the core of their being, when they are drawn in from their very depths, they begin to emerge with all their capacity, richness, initiative, and creativity. So, it isn't about changing their circumstances to “fix” them or file down their edges. No, it’s that when the core is touched, everything else aligns, everything begins to work together, and the scattered pieces of their life become one, unified to let the person live with their full creativity.
Fra Lorenzo: Let me ask a provocative question: how does Christ touch you at your core?
Fr. Julián Carrón: This is precisely the great fact—real and mysterious at the same time—of the encounter with Christ. How did He touch the core of John and Andrew's selves? Or the core of Peter's, Zacchaeus's, or Mary Magdalene's? This is part of the encounter. But I think for most people listening, it’s easy to understand: just think of falling in love. How does one person touch the very core of another? It’s a presence that appears in your life, perhaps one you never knew before, that becomes so significant you realize you can no longer imagine your reality without it. It reminds me... I really like a line from a song by Guccini: “I am not, when you are not there,” because when the loved one is gone, “I am alone with my thoughts.”
Fra Lorenzo: Beautiful.
Fr. Julián Carrón: So, the point is that this encounter happens. It’s the beginning of a journey that then matures, deepens, and is enriched by facing life's circumstances. This is the real issue. Without this “something” that comes first—the encounter—everything else feels cumbersome, complicated, and ultimately external to the person, to their core. I love something Pope Benedict said, quoting St. Augustine: “What moves the core of the self?” That’s the point. It’s what Pavese is talking about, isn't it, with the “inflamed point.”
This means that when these thinkers spoke of this ultimate foundation of being, this “inflamed point,” they believed what they had before them wasn't just a series of biological, psychological, sociological, and historical factors. No, they had before them a “self” with an irreducible core. And so the question is always how to enter into a relationship with this self. Because if you walk into a classroom without seeing the “selves” waiting to be awakened and provoked, then you can't do the true work of education, which isn't just about providing information. As you said, I explained this to a colleague when I was in charge of a group of boys at the minor seminary. I told him, "The difference between your movement and mine is in the title of your educational proposal. Yours is ‘Forging Men’: you put the iron in the fire and give it a shape. No, ours is ‘The Educational Risk’: everything hinges on freedom."
Fra Lorenzo: That brings us to a question. We were students here in Brescia and were deeply marked by our encounter with Father Roberto, our formator, who always emphasized freedom. He often asked us, ”You have freedom, but what do you do with it?" In your experience, is freedom a problem, a complication, or not?
Fr. Julián Carrón: For me, freedom is always a gift. A gift, even when you feel stuck or struggle to use it. Freedom is one of those indicators a person has for understanding the nature of their own self—that the self is not reducible to a series of psychological, historical, or biological issues. As we said before, there is something irreducible in that person, and so there is always room for freedom. I discovered this through my own experience. Many times, when you're stuck, you think you can free yourself in a certain way, but it doesn't work. At first, this is a relief, because you tell yourself, “Okay, I can’t do certain things,” but eventually, even you get tired of that.
So I began to realize that the very fact that there was still room for my freedom to be exercised could become a real opportunity for me. From that moment on, I began to see everything as an opportunity for freedom to come into play. Then, everything becomes an occasion for personal growth, a step forward. It isn't perceived as a burden or a moralistic responsibility, but as a chance to live through circumstances, relationships, and difficulties, precisely because there is a space of freedom where I can engage. If a situation is never going to change, must I simply endure it? If the circumstance in which the Mystery places me is fixed, must I suffocate? Or can I let something into that circumstance that allows me to live it differently—not just suffer it, not just endure it, but to avoid suffocating in it? When you realize this, freedom is perceived as the greatest gift the Mystery has given us.
We are not called to live by suffocating, no matter the situation. And when you challenge people to do this, incredible things happen. I could give you examples of people in complex family situations, perhaps living abroad without relationships... But when a person discovers that they can become a protagonist even there, in a situation they have only endured for years, they begin to see a newness, a change they never expected. This truly amazes me, because I cannot look at any situation, however complex, without remembering all those experiences where I saw people reborn in contexts once thought to be unchangeable. Not because the circumstances changed—often they don't, right? Sometimes due to illness, temperament, or some other situation, they remain the same—but because the person grows. Don Giussani said something that, in my view, is crucial: a person's strength is the intensity of their self-awareness. This is what sets them free, in any circumstance.
Fra Lorenzo: That's beautiful. We'll ask you one last question, related to what you just said about freedom. What kind of freedom is required of an educator, or a father, who sees his child or student failing to recognize what he is offering?
Fr. Julián Carrón: I’ll tell you a story about a mother with two adopted sons who give her a very hard time, especially one of them. She told me, “I don't know what to do,” and explained everything. At a certain point, though, she mentioned two small things that struck me. For example, regarding the son who caused all the difficulties, she said, “He ‘steals’ my books about the saints.” I replied, “But what sensitivity your son must have, to be interested in something like that amid all the chaos you're describing.”
Then she added, “And the other thing that amazes me is that when he sees a baby, his eyes go wide.” She showed me a photo of this boy, maybe 14 or 15, looking at an infant with such intense focus and attention. So I said to her, "Instead of planning your son's life, what if you did this? Pay attention. Because if you had only told me about the mess and not these details, I wouldn't know where to start. Instead, let's start by seeing what it is in the Mystery that attracts this boy. So you have a task this summer: instead of trying to fix his life by telling him what he should or shouldn't do—which only drives you crazy because he doesn't do it—just do me this one favor: pay attention to how the Mystery draws him in, what initiatives he takes." You see this not because you invent it or dream it, but because you recognize it when it happens—when things capture him, when they attract him.
We have nothing more interesting to do than to cooperate with the way the Mystery leads people to their destiny. Unfortunately, we’ve struggled to recognize this, because there is no access to truth except through freedom. So, the only thing we can do, if we are attentive, is cooperate with the way He leads him to his destiny. Instead of assuming God is distracted, that He isn't the protagonist attracting the person, we create our own “formation” programs. And then we're left dealing with a young person who just does whatever they want. But when the Mystery attracts him, he follows, because that's how we are made. We are made to be attracted. He gave us this irreducible nature so we could be drawn to something that generates us, that pulls us out of ourselves. The whole task lies in a careful observation of reality, of how the Mystery works, so we can cooperate with the way He leads a person to their destiny. We are collaborators with the One who is the great guide, the great educator.
Fra Lorenzo: Thank you.
Fr. Julián Carrón: Thank you very much, it's a pleasure.
The transcription and translation have not been revised by the author.
